Soft frets?

[KM Frye]

I don't think it's me, but I have to wonder... I was changing the strings on my 3yr old T5z a few days ago and noticed that the frets have started to develop depressions in them..  already?

This is my current favorite guitar, but it's not played hours and hours every day. It's played about three, maybe four hours a week.  I've got other guitars that have gone through an entire decade of weekly gigging without requiring a refret, and a 50 year old Gretsch with over 2,000 gigs on it which is close to needing a re-fret, but at this rate the pretty little T5z will be up for one by the time it's five years old..

Has anyone else had this experience?



(Update- I've sent a note to Taylor to see what they have to offer..)

[Ohio Tom]

I am wearing the frets out on my 510ce that I bought 10yrs ago.
I play it a few hours a week.
I already had to dress the frets once to clean up wear marks. Still has good life left in it thou

My 21yr old 614 is right at the wear limit and I'm just putting off re-fret on that one.

I chalked it up to the heavy gage strings, but maybe it is the fret wire that's soft.
Always the B string that eats the frets on acoustics.

[KM Frye]

Well, I've heard back from Taylor, and it seems the frets are a little on the soft side, and visible wear at three years is considered normal.  Here's the text of the letter sent to me:

Jun 3, 2021, 3:49 PM PDT

Hello Kevin,
Yes, fret wear is normal and as long as the guitar is being played, the frets will wear. The frets on our guitars are nickel silver, so it's a softer alloy and does tend to wear quicker, but the trade off is better intonation and tone. You can send us a picture to see if that is normal or not, but from what you are mentioning, it does sound like it, and the frets don't necessarily have to be replaced, they can always be dressed and polished. That is something that any reputable guitar shop or luthier can do.

Stainless steel is a lot more durable, but when we tested out in R&D, they didn't liked the way they sounded or played, but having it replaced with a fret wire of your choosing is simply a player's choice and there's nothing wrong with that.

Thanks.
Jonathan Ortiz
Customer Service

Now we know... 

[Edward]

Hey KM,

All standard frets are nickel silver, all!  Do not infer from that email that Taylor's frets are any different.  Taylor does not make fret wire; they buy it like every other guitar maker, the chief supplier (afaik) is Dunlop.  As the CS rep stated, there is stainless steel that is the hardest wire available, and does not wear at all since guitar strings are always softer than SS.  Then there is Jescar "evo" wire which is in between.  For the truly fastidious, you can look up it all up (Rockwell hardness scale) but it's simplest to think of the ubiquitous fret wire as what everyone uses, SS on the opposite end and commonly found on small-maker electrics, and the Jescar in between. 

Worth noting is Bob et.al. claim they don't like SS frets for the tone they supposedly impart; this is what the CS rep was alluding to.  That SS imparts less-than-desirable playability, however, is hogwash.  The resultant "ping" or sonic "artifacts" some claim they hear with SS is arguably worth discussing.  But to suggest SS frets don't play as well as NS is flat-out silly, if not spoken out of his own ignorance. 

As for the sonic difference, I have refretted a Tele with SS and it was simply sublime.  Zero sonic difference, and played demonstrably better than NS.  And this is duplicated by every SS-fret electric I have ever played.  I am wholly sold on SS for electrics, and whatever refrets I will encounter will absolutely be in SS.  That said, for my acoustics, I'll likely go with the Jescar, if only to play it safe, so to speak.  Worth noting is Taylor will refret your acoustic with Evo wire, so there is always that option.  I've personally had only one acoustic refretted, and I had the Taylor folks do it with standard NS only because at that time I was cash poor and could not justify their upcharge for the evo.  On hindsight, I think this was a poor decision and simply should have gone with the evo.   As a side note, there are those who have, indeed, happily refretted their acoustics with SS and love the results.  All food for thought, in any event.

As for Taylors wearing faster than other guitars, I say no way.  NS metal is what it is.  And there simply are too much variables between guitar x, y, or z to claim one guitar's NS frets wear faster than another because of the maker, let alone the frets.  FWIW, I offer my own personal experience that we all hold diff guitars differently and play them differently because of how we feel about this or that guitar.  Players are not sonic machines; we simply play different guits differently than others just because.  Ok, so if that sounds really dumb, forgive me, but that is my actual experience.  That I don't play my strat the same as my LP, nor my Taylor dred the same as my RT-2.  All played a bunch, and all but the RT gigged: and fwiw, it was my strat and RT that needed the refrets.  I can hypothesize the reasons for this, but I'm already too long here .  Some are simply more conducive to being played harder than others, and this is likely the biggest cause for fret wear.

So your well-played Gretsch (kudos to you, btw) for whatever reason isn't showing wear, and perhaps it is simply because we're talking about how you play this and your others (electrics I am guessing).  Again, just food for thought as your mileage may vary

Edward

[Earl]

It is always possible that Taylor got a batch of nickel-silver (NS) fret wire from their supplier that was softer than usual, and that batch ended up on your guitar.  I have several guitars with stainless steel frets and I quite like the feel of them - they are mirror smooth.  Those are not Taylor guitars so I can’t say for sure that there is no tonal effect.  I have never refretted anything other than my old Silvertone, where I personally replaced original brass frets with NS about 30 years ago.  Those frets still look fine, but the playing wear was mostly put on other nicer guitars as I acquired them. 

SS frets will never wear out in any normal player’s lifetime, so that is appealing for long-term ownership and heavy use.  EVO Gold is somewhere between SS and NS for hardness.  My personal belief is that stainless steel requires more effort and wears the tooling faster, and those are bad things in a high-production factory environment. So the “official position” is that stainless steel frets didn’t sound as good, but I would not be the least bit surprised to learn that additional production cost was the real reason behind that decision.

[Gabrielobrien]

100% agree with all of this. Nearly all acoustic guitars come with nickel silver. Taylors don’t wear faster. I have 20 year old Taylors and new Taylors and none of them have tons of fret wear because I don’t death grip my guitar. Your right hand pressure is also a factor. If you’re thunder hand strumming, the frets are moving back and forth on the fret like a saw.

Hey KM,

All standard frets are nickel silver, all!  Do not infer from that email that Taylor's frets are any different.  Taylor does not make fret wire; they buy it like every other guitar maker, the chief supplier (afaik) is Dunlop.  As the CS rep stated, there is stainless steel that is the hardest wire available, and does not wear at all since guitar strings are always softer than SS.  Then there is Jescar "evo" wire which is in between.  For the truly fastidious, you can look up it all up (Rockwell hardness scale) but it's simplest to think of the ubiquitous fret wire as what everyone uses, SS on the opposite end and commonly found on small-maker electrics, and the Jescar in between. 

Worth noting is Bob et.al. claim they don't like SS frets for the tone they supposedly impart; this is what the CS rep was alluding to.  That SS imparts less-than-desirable playability, however, is hogwash.  The resultant "ping" or sonic "artifacts" some claim they hear with SS is arguably worth discussing.  But to suggest SS frets don't play as well as NS is flat-out silly, if not spoken out of his own ignorance. 

As for the sonic difference, I have refretted a Tele with SS and it was simply sublime.  Zero sonic difference, and played demonstrably better than NS.  And this is duplicated by every SS-fret electric I have ever played.  I am wholly sold on SS for electrics, and whatever refrets I will encounter will absolutely be in SS.  That said, for my acoustics, I'll likely go with the Jescar, if only to play it safe, so to speak.  Worth noting is Taylor will refret your acoustic with Evo wire, so there is always that option.  I've personally had only one acoustic refretted, and I had the Taylor folks do it with standard NS only because at that time I was cash poor and could not justify their upcharge for the evo.  On hindsight, I think this was a poor decision and simply should have gone with the evo.   As a side note, there are those who have, indeed, happily refretted their acoustics with SS and love the results.  All food for thought, in any event.

As for Taylors wearing faster than other guitars, I say no way.  NS metal is what it is.  And there simply are too much variables between guitar x, y, or z to claim one guitar's NS frets wear faster than another because of the maker, let alone the frets.  FWIW, I offer my own personal experience that we all hold diff guitars differently and play them differently because of how we feel about this or that guitar.  Players are not sonic machines; we simply play different guits differently than others just because.  Ok, so if that sounds really dumb, forgive me, but that is my actual experience.  That I don't play my strat the same as my LP, nor my Taylor dred the same as my RT-2.  All played a bunch, and all but the RT gigged: and fwiw, it was my strat and RT that needed the refrets.  I can hypothesize the reasons for this, but I'm already too long here .  Some are simply more conducive to being played harder than others, and this is likely the biggest cause for fret wear.

So your well-played Gretsch (kudos to you, btw) for whatever reason isn't showing wear, and perhaps it is simply because we're talking about how you play this and your others (electrics I am guessing).  Again, just food for thought as your mileage may vary

Edward

[MmmRibs]

Purely anecdotal, but I got a first-run AD27 last July. Neck angle and everything was great, no big set-up issues. By September I had it in the shop for fretwear. Guitars I've had and played hard for many years didn't have frets anywhere near as bad as how these looked. There was even a bunch of metal "dust" coating the fretboard around the areas of the wear. It was real strange. I took it to Third Coast, an authorized Taylor shop here in Chicagoland, they didn't understand it either. Taylor doesn't normally cover fretwear, but they made an exception and paid for the fret dressing.

Since then there is a bit of visible wear, nothing like what it was. But I've also been playing it far less often, so who knows.

[Earl]

That amount of wear in just a few months does sound unusual, especially if you don't have similar wear patterns on your other guitars.  As mentioned above, Taylor may have gotten a particularly soft batch of fret wire - it happens.  There has certainly been plenty of supply chain weirdness in the world over the past year, and that could include fret wire from their vendors.

I too have nickel-silver frets with 20+ years of play time and barely any visible wear on them even from my very strong fretting hand.  Frets can typically be dressed and re-crowned two or three times before they need to be replaced outright.  When replacement becomes necessary (and done at your expense) look seriously at Jescar EVO Gold.  EVO is harder than N-S but softer than stainless steel.  Or bite the bullet and re-do the first 5-7 frets with SS when needed and never worry about wear again in this lifetime.

[Ohio Tom]

Hey KM,

All standard frets are nickel silver, all!  Do not infer from that email that Taylor's frets are any different.  Taylor does not make fret wire; they buy it like every other guitar maker, the chief supplier (afaik) is Dunlop.  As the CS rep stated, there is stainless steel that is the hardest wire available, and does not wear at all since guitar strings are always softer than SS.  Then there is Jescar "evo" wire which is in between.  For the truly fastidious, you can look up it all up (Rockwell hardness scale) but it's simplest to think of the ubiquitous fret wire as what everyone uses, SS on the opposite end and commonly found on small-maker electrics, and the Jescar in between. 

Worth noting is Bob et.al. claim they don't like SS frets for the tone they supposedly impart; this is what the CS rep was alluding to.  That SS imparts less-than-desirable playability, however, is hogwash.  The resultant "ping" or sonic "artifacts" some claim they hear with SS is arguably worth discussing.  But to suggest SS frets don't play as well as NS is flat-out silly, if not spoken out of his own ignorance. 

As for the sonic difference, I have refretted a Tele with SS and it was simply sublime.  Zero sonic difference, and played demonstrably better than NS.  And this is duplicated by every SS-fret electric I have ever played.  I am wholly sold on SS for electrics, and whatever refrets I will encounter will absolutely be in SS.  That said, for my acoustics, I'll likely go with the Jescar, if only to play it safe, so to speak.  Worth noting is Taylor will refret your acoustic with Evo wire, so there is always that option.  I've personally had only one acoustic refretted, and I had the Taylor folks do it with standard NS only because at that time I was cash poor and could not justify their upcharge for the evo.  On hindsight, I think this was a poor decision and simply should have gone with the evo.   As a side note, there are those who have, indeed, happily refretted their acoustics with SS and love the results.  All food for thought, in any event.

As for Taylors wearing faster than other guitars, I say no way.  NS metal is what it is.  And there simply are too much variables between guitar x, y, or z to claim one guitar's NS frets wear faster than another because of the maker, let alone the frets.  FWIW, I offer my own personal experience that we all hold diff guitars differently and play them differently because of how we feel about this or that guitar.  Players are not sonic machines; we simply play different guits differently than others just because.  Ok, so if that sounds really dumb, forgive me, but that is my actual experience.  That I don't play my strat the same as my LP, nor my Taylor dred the same as my RT-2.  All played a bunch, and all but the RT gigged: and fwiw, it was my strat and RT that needed the refrets.  I can hypothesize the reasons for this, but I'm already too long here .  Some are simply more conducive to being played harder than others, and this is likely the biggest cause for fret wear.

So your well-played Gretsch (kudos to you, btw) for whatever reason isn't showing wear, and perhaps it is simply because we're talking about how you play this and your others (electrics I am guessing).  Again, just food for thought as your mileage may vary

Edward

ONe thing I can say:
I work with many different metals. Stainless steel is a funny material.
Yes, it is very hard and will look pretty forever.    however, It typically doesn't wear very well. When presented as a wear surface, stainless tends to gall and chew up. It has horrible wear characteristics in a sliding arrangement.
In injection molds, we do not allow stainless to slide against stainless. We always mate it with a softer wear material and use lots of lube.
Taper interlocks made of stainless are a nightmare. Once they start galling, it's all over..
 
I can totally understand how folks might not like the feel of stainless frets as they will tend to "grab" the mating part.

Makes total sense that stainless frets won't feel as smooth as Nickle/silver will when fretting a string.

[Edward]

Hi Tom,

I will respectfully disagree with you here on SS frets.  You clearly have manufacturing/engineering experience on your side, which attests to your experience with the material and its properties in various applications.  But consider what you know with respect to this working environment: SS frets against nickel, phosphor bronze, and plain steel. 

The wound strings will always wear first and haven't a chance --not a one-- against the SS.  And while harder than the former, the plain steel b and e likewise are going to do nothing to SS frets, zippo, nada.  I am no materials engineer, so let's make that clear, yet we all understand soft vs hard, and understand what material is going to go first.  Divots in NS frets are an absolute expression of their hardness when faced with those pesky strings and the friction they endure under fingers.  Substitute the harder material that is SS, and we know with certainty what wear first. 

Couple this with countless examples of SS frets across geardom --and my own aforementioned experience with SS frets, meager as it is-- and the jury is in: SS frets simply don't show wear.  No galling nor pitting to be sure, but not even any trace wear that is observable under the naked eye.  Moreover, SS frets remain buttery smooth and immanently more "slick" than NS frets.  Both frets, fresh off the bat, SS is smoother and easily discernible under then hands.  Add use and age, the difference in feel becomes even more dramatic.  Some absolutely do not like this feel, which is perfectly anyone's prerogative.  But I have never once experienced, nor heard/read of any experience whatsoever, of SS frets changing/wearing once they've been fitted.  Ever.  IME.  SS frets are no magic cure; simply an alternative that offer its own properties and folks choose which properties suit them best. 

Edward
 

[GenoBeno]

Thanks Kevin, I thought it was just my guitar.

I too own a T5z,  2017 build, purchased new in late 2019 from a Taylor dealer. When purchased, I went over the guitar very carefully, there were no sign of wear, it was a new guitar.

I recently performed a complete setup and polished the frets. I was very surprised to find noticeable fret wear on the first six frets.

The location of the wear was interesting as I play a lot of lead and my chord voicings are all over the neck. I also play with a very light touch. I don’t play many open chords so I wonder what the fret wear would be if I did.

I only have one other Taylor to compare to, I own a 1995 812-C (not to be confused with a CE). I’ve had this guitar from new and there is no extraordinary fret wear to date.

I’ve been playing for over 50 years, own many guitars and this fret wear stood out. Note, I was able to polish them out, for now.

With regards to SS frets, sorry I had to chime in, I love them! Granted they do sound different than regular frets, but if you play with a lot of bending and vibrato, they play like butter!

I only have one guitar with SS frets, it’s around 4 years old, I play it daily and there is no fret wear. I don’t think I would enjoy an acoustic guitar with SS but for a solid body they are nice.

Like everything musical, it’s a matter of taste.

Geno

[Ohio Tom]

Hi Tom,

I will respectfully disagree with you here on SS frets.  You clearly have manufacturing/engineering experience on your side, which attests to your experience with the material and its properties in various applications.  But consider what you know with respect to this working environment: SS frets against nickel, phosphor bronze, and plain steel. 

The wound strings will always wear first and haven't a chance --not a one-- against the SS.  And while harder than the former, the plain steel b and e likewise are going to do nothing to SS frets, zippo, nada.  I am no materials engineer, so let's make that clear, yet we all understand soft vs hard, and understand what material is going to go first.  Divots in NS frets are an absolute expression of their hardness when faced with those pesky strings and the friction they endure under fingers.  Substitute the harder material that is SS, and we know with certainty what wear first. 

Couple this with countless examples of SS frets across geardom --and my own aforementioned experience with SS frets, meager as it is-- and the jury is in: SS frets simply don't show wear.  No galling nor pitting to be sure, but not even any trace wear that is observable under the naked eye.  Moreover, SS frets remain buttery smooth and immanently more "slick" than NS frets.  Both frets, fresh off the bat, SS is smoother and easily discernible under then hands.  Add use and age, the difference in feel becomes even more dramatic.  Some absolutely do not like this feel, which is perfectly anyone's prerogative.  But I have never once experienced, nor heard/read of any experience whatsoever, of SS frets changing/wearing once they've been fitted.  Ever.  IME.  SS frets are no magic cure; simply an alternative that offer its own properties and folks choose which properties suit them best. 

Edward

Fair enough. point taken.

[Gabrielobrien]

Here's Andy Powers on fret wear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6D5kFIQugM&t=91s

[ebick]

Another vote here for SS frets.

[Earl]

My main player guitars these days are carbon fiber and they all have mirror polished SS frets.  But as I said before, there are plenty of nickel silver fretted guitars at my house and in my past.  They've had countless hours of play time and show minimal divots or wear.

"Stainless steel" is a semi-generic name for literally dozens of alloys.  Some are even non-magnetic, which is weird for steel.  As I recall from my materials science classes back in engineering school many moons ago, there is a whole range of metallurgical properties under the "stainless" umbrella.