Taylor Expression System or K&K?

[dougboy1970]

I've got a question that could potentially be sacrilege for a Taylor owner to say outloud.

I've not been all that pleased with the Expression system in my GS8.

I just don't hear the close proximity to the guitars natural sound that the expression system is said to approximate.  I want to hear it as such, but I just don't.

Then my buddy had a K&K pickup installed in his Martin D18v and all of a sudden I knew what a pickup system was supposed to sound like.  I mean, I was in utter disbelief as to how good he sounded through his PA with the K&K.

I then regretted getting my GS8 with the expression system and wished I had bought it pickup-less and installed a K&K as well.

Not to mention the K&K is passive (no batteries) and my Expression system already had to be replaced (free of charge by Taylor).

Now, my buddy's luthier is telling me he can add the K&K and that he has special rosewood plugs for the volume/bass/treble controls and even for the battery insert area.

I'm seriously considering doing this.

What do you guys think?

What are your feelings about the expression system or K&K?

Thanks for your responses.

____________________

2008 Taylor GS8
2012 Taylor GS Mini Mahagony
Fishman Soloamp
LR Baggs Para D.I.

[jjrpilot-admin]

Hmmm...tough one there.  Which version of the ES do you have?   When did they update the ES system?


I know that my GS8 has the updated ES system, and I love it.  No, I'm not saying that just b/c I'm supposed to.  To my ears, I still hear the "woodiness" of the Taylor which I absolutely love.

[dougboy1970]

I think it was fixed sometime in late 2010 or even early 2011...

have you adjusted the switches inside your system?  I know you can turn off/on either the bridge pickup or the mics in the top with the white switches just inside the soundhole...

[michaelw]

depending on if the ES in your GS8 was replaced or if it was updated,  from 07-09 (& very early 10)
the ES had two defeatable body sensors, with 2 switches on the pre-amp circuit board, while the
newest version of the ES has a discrete pre-amp & one body sensor, with one switch on the pre-amp

the current ES utilizes a magnetic dynamic string (neck) sensor, which is not defeatable, & a dynamic body sensor

i had a guitar with the K&K pick ups (can't remember if it was the pure western or mini) &
i found that it was quite prone to feedback, which could be a concern with high stage levels

i'm going to try to compare the 2 body sensor ES to the current system,
along with the LR Baggs iMix & anthem when i'm at the music store tomorrow

i was able to compare the iMix & anthem already & i like the warmth of iMix, but
the clarity of the anthem was quite impressive also - the guitars are very different
as well & both systems were able to reproduce the guitar's 'native tone' quite well

[dougboy1970]

I must have the old ES because there are still two switches...they must have replaced a failing part when the Taylor guy repaired it...so maybe because I have the initial ES I'm not getting the same results as other happy new ES owners...

I do have to say that I was really surprised how HOT the K&K ran in my friend's guitar, especially since it's a passive pickup.  And yes, he's had to buy sound-hole dampeners to limit feedback during live play, whereas I haven't had feedback trouble, at all, playing with the ES.

Can't wait to see your reviews...

[Herb Hunter]

The Expression System has switches to disable the soundboard pickups because in some very loud amplification situations the amplified sound coming from the speakers will excite the soundboard which tends to muddy the guitar's own sound and the pickups reproduce that muddied sound. In such cases, it is might be better to rely only on the neck pickup. Since the K&K pickup is but a piezoelectric soundboard pickup (apparently more feedback prone than the ES), in very loud settings, one has no way of mitigating the adverse effect the soundboard responding to the sound coming from the speakers. This is only a problem in loud band settings. Solo guitarists rarely have that problem.

Incidentally, I would describe the Expression System's neck pickup as an induction (magnetic) design, not a dynamic one as it has no moving parts. The ES soundboard pickups are dynamic as, like a dynamic microphone, they have a diaphragm that moves in response to sound waves (like a speaker cone in reverse).

[dougboy1970]

Wow, you guys have taught me a lot...I'll keep all this info in mind...thanks for such amazing answers!

[Scriptor]

I had a K&K PWM in a GC8 I once owned ... a very good pickup ... with a good pre-amp I was very satisfied ... however, I have to say, I am very pleased with the latest ES systems in my 414 & 814 and have no desire to change anything ... IMO, the latest version of the ES is markedly better than the previous ES ...

[maritimer]

My early impression of the ES system was not good.  I had 2 guitars with the 1st generation and i found the tone not to be to my liking.  I installed a B-Band A2.2 into a custom GS and enjoyed the natural sound that that system brought. I did miss the on-board tone shaping capabilities though.   I just recently purchased a new GA 12 fret that came with the new ES system and it is light years ahead of the 1st generation.  Note that I do not have any experience with the 2nd generation. 

I am thinking through a BTO and two weeks ago I would have not gone with the ES system and would have gone with another B-Band or the Baggs Anthem system w/ onboard mic.  With my recent experience, I would seriously consider the ES system.  I do have a few gigs in the coming weeks and I have ordered the breakout box for on the floor mute and tuner capabilities so the final judgement is yet to be made but I am impressed. 

I know that you can upgrade the 2nd gen to current but do not know what the cost would be or what the sonic differences would be.  Do some checking on that option as well.  Hopefully someone has gone through it and can offer up the result.  It is nice to have the controls on the guitar! 

Good luck!

[dougboy1970]

Amazing responses...I think that's a good idea...to find out what it would me to get the latest release of the ES...because having the onboard controls is quite helpful to me.  Especially for volume control switching back and forth from strumming to finger picking...I do use and LR Baggs acoustic para D.I. which I think kind of lessens the problem with the original ES...ah, man, what a dilemma...it'll work out though...I should just be quiet and keep it as I've got it...

[Iplay2]

I have both, and I would say it depends on how you use your guitar. 

My 710 has a K&K, which is a fantastic pickup.  Problem is that if I need a little extra volume on stage, I had better have every feedback trick I can think of working or it will scream at you.  In low volume settings it can’t be beat.

My 614ce has the ES system, and though it isn’t quit as pleasant to my ears as my K&K, I still love it.  With a touch of EQ, I can get a fantastic sound with little if any feedback issues.  Plus you can plug directly into a PA if need be and be ready to go.

[dougboy1970]

thanks for that last post...since you have both...i have found when performing in certain situations (read: sound guy available) that the guitar sounds amazing plugged in (I'm guessing because he's eq'ing) or even when I set up my lrbaggs di just right, so I'll stick to the ES and avoid the feedback monster.  Thanks!

[Scriptor]

I have both, and I would say it depends on how you use your guitar. 

+1 ... when I had my GC8 with the K&K, I only had issues when playing in a band setting where I had to compete with loud electric instruments and drums ... by issues, I mean challenges that had to be addressed by pre-amps, eq'ing etc. to avoid feed back and give sufficient volume ... another reason I opted for the latest ES in my GA sized Taylors ... it allows me to have a solution that is more "worry free" either with an amp or direct to PA ... I can just concentrate on playing and enjoying rather than tweaking and reacting to problems ...

[allegretto]

Stay away of the ES. Try LR Baggs Anthem or K&K mini with mic. They are both great sounding!

[S MS Picker]

Just a thought. Have you had your friend play your Taylor while you listen out front. It's been my experience, that an amp or monitor or house speaker sounds completely different on stage than out front. With careful tweaking & killer front and side fill monitors you can duplicate the house sound or the stage mix. It sometimes takes a while, and every venue is different. I once used an Alesis MidiVerb IV for an acoustic(99 Taylor 510 CE) guitar pre-amp.I had 5 frequently played venues tweaked & stored in the memory.(cut my sound check from 30 min to 5 min).
My $0.02 worth. 
Steve