Taylor Expression System or K&K?

[dougboy1970]

Just a thought. Have you had your friend play your Taylor while you listen out front. It's been my experience, that an amp or monitor or house speaker sounds completely different on stage than out front. With careful tweaking & killer front and side fill monitors you can duplicate the house sound or the stage mix. It sometimes takes a while, and every venue is different. I once used an Alesis MidiVerb IV for an acoustic(99 Taylor 510 CE) guitar pre-amp.I had 5 frequently played venues tweaked & stored in the memory.(cut my sound check from 30 min to 5 min).
My $0.02 worth. 
Steve

That's probably worth more than 2 cents... I think you're absolutely right about stage sounds being different and I've tried to deal with that in numerous ways...usually I'll play a Church environment where I'm not really working the PA system as much as I'd like, or when I play solo i use my soloamp and the best thing I ever did was in an outdoor venue where I could actually get the full length of my cables away from it, and it was amazing how much better the sound was then being four or five feet away...it pays so much to have other people helping get the sound right as well...

[Herb Hunter]

Stay away of the ES. Try LR Baggs Anthem or K&K mini with mic. They are both great sounding!

Why should the author of the opening post stay away from the Expression System? Your imperative, stay away, is meaningless without an explanation as to why he should comply.

[dcopper]

The ES has always been a source of hot debate. I had a "600 Special" that was really a 614ce maple with the original ES system and I did not like the sound at all. I upped the ante to a 2009 614 later model and it sounded good, but I did not like the 2 body sensors which always seemed to be competing frequencies so I would switch them off. I have a 2011 812ce with the ES and it sounds pretty good with the ES. I think it is much more natural and I generally turn off the body sensors as well. It is the newest version ES. I just picked up a 2011 914ce with ES that I believe sounds very natural. I have been able to "plug and play" with the newer versions of the ES.

THAT ALL SAID, my ears are my ears (obvious department), so another system might sound better to someone else. I can only say that I think the newer ES is greatly improved. I can't say if it is what you are looking for. You definitely need to do a comparison. I also carry a Fishman Rare Earth and an LR Baggs M1, both soundhole pickups, with me in the event I have any problems with the ES, which I can happily say I have not. The good thing for all of us is that these systems are competitive and they keep giving us all more options. It was not like back in the day when all you had was an Ovation on board pickup, or maybe a Martin Thinline.

[S MS Picker]

The best sounding pick-up system I've used was the Fishman "Blender". Mine had stereo out so the individual outputs could be routed and EQ'ed .The house mix was mic heavy while the monitor mix was UST heavy. If you set-up as the directions advised, feedback was a minimal issue, as long as you stayed close to the sweet spot(phase issues). Sounded great out front and OK on stage. After all we play for the audience when on stage.I also used a condenser mic (sometimes 2) w/this system for an even sweeter house sound.
Steve

[dougboy1970]

My first 614ce was back when the electronics were fishman and when I went to a studio the engineer was like, this thing sounds perfect...I had some good fortune with that pickup...I also get what you're saying about turning off the body sensors.  i do have the older ES with two body sensors, so I guess I'll have to try turning both of them off...I have tried with one off, or the other, but never both...

[allegretto]

Herb Hunter,
the ES for me is very unbalanced.The volume that comes out from every string it's not the same and the produced frequencies are too far away for a pickup which produces the great natural sound of a Taylor guitar.
Taylor tries to solve the problems and brings new versions of the pickup every year but I think is far away untli now to get the sound of a company which produces pickups for years like LR Baggs or Shadow or K&K.
In my case the problems solved when I removed the ES and placed a LR Bagggs Anthem.

[dougboy1970]

Herb Hunter,
the ES for me is very unbalanced.The volume that comes out from every string it's not the same and the produced frequencies are too far away for a pickup which produces the great natural sound of a Taylor guitar.
Taylor tries to solve the problems and brings new versions of the pickup every year but I think is far away untli now to get the sound of a company which produces pickups for years like LR Baggs or Shadow or K&K.
In my case the problems solved when I removed the ES and placed a LR Bagggs Anthem.

I wish you wouldn't have written this because deep in my heart it's what i'd like to do, but it's going to cost me!

[Herb Hunter]

Herb Hunter,
the ES for me is very unbalanced.The volume that comes out from every string it's not the same and the produced frequencies are too far away for a pickup which produces the great natural sound of a Taylor guitar.
Taylor tries to solve the problems and brings new versions of the pickup every year but I think is far away untli now to get the sound of a company which produces pickups for years like LR Baggs or Shadow or K&K.
In my case the problems solved when I removed the ES and placed a LR Bagggs Anthem.

Thank you for your response.

[Edward]

How about restating the obvious: there is no one system for all situations. 

There are systems out there that amplify your acoustic's natural tone better than the ES.  But "better" tone (or should I say tone more natural to the acoustic) comes at a price, often that of sensitivity to feedback.  Think about it, a mic (actually plural is best) is the only way to truly capture the sound of a guitar whose whole body is vibrating, producing the tone we hear with our ears: amplify the whole thing and we feel "whole," er, happy. 

Problem: systems which get closer to the this "whole tone" are the very systems that will be most sensitive to feedback.  You doubt me, try it.  With house up loud.  Don't forget the other guitarist whose electric is competing for space.  Throw in a drummer and bassist.  Add floor wedges.   And why not some background vocalists while we're at it.  Get it?  The more "naked" your style and/or venue, the more "acoustic" you can get away with.  But as you add volume and/or voices to the mix, things change; and they change quickly!  Ever try and chase feedback?  Things can unravel very fast as voices stack up. 

All this said, I have yet to use a system that offers the versatility and quality tone as the ES.  The 1st-gen AA system worked well with lots of EQ-ing.  The 9v sounded even better, more natural sounding.  And this current 3rd-gen ES is the best sounding of the ES' yet.   No it won't beat a mic, and there are other pup systems that will sound more natural.  But no other system have I yet run into can handle as high gain-to-feedback levels as the ES, any ES, most notably the current ES which sounds dang good!

So there you go.  Use whichever system floats your boat.  But to deride the ES simply because your personal system sounds best (to you, may I add) misses the point entirely.  If you prefer another system (again, for your application), great.  But that does not mean it is the superior system and the ES is crap.  C'mon sounds a bit simplistic, would you not agree?  And yes, of course, all the above IMHO.

Edward

[mgap]

I just received a 2011 714ce I let you know what I think of the new ES system compared to the old.

[drbob1]

I've been using a Fishman Dual source in my 910 (and now custom Brazilian) and really like the sound. That said, with the Mama Bear or a decent parametric EQ I can make anything work.

[Steely Glen]

Where are these switches that you guys speak of? Can I just reach into the soundhole and switch them? How? Is it safe given that it looks like a piece of computer hardware in there. Thanks in advance for any replies.

The switches are on the preamp inside the soundhole.  They are white and can be switched on and off either with your finger or a pencil eraser works well too.  The second generation has two of them, each one corresponding to one of the body sensors on the second generation ES.  The third generation (2010 to present) has only one because there is only one body sensor now.  The difference between the sensors being on and off is subtle to my ears.  I leave mine on all the time. 

[Steely Glen]

Where are these switches that you guys speak of? Can I just reach into the soundhole and switch them? How? Is it safe given that it looks like a piece of computer hardware in there. Thanks in advance for any replies.

The switches are on the preamp inside the soundhole.  They are white and can be switched on and off either with your finger or a pencil eraser works well too.  The second generation has two of them, each one corresponding to one of the body sensors on the second generation ES.  The third generation (2010 to present) has only one because there is only one body sensor now.  The difference between the sensors being on and off is subtle to my ears.  I leave mine on all the time.

Ohh, interesting. I'll have to check it out in my Taylors when I get home. How can you tell if they're on or off? Does the switch have labels?

The swtich(es) will not be labelled, but up is the "on" position and down is the "off" position.  The following document will describe more about the ES, but keep in mind that it was written in 2007, so it's a bit dated:

http://www.taylorguitars.com/global/pdfs/02_ExpressionSystem.pdf

[GSMC Bob]

The 3rd generation ES (2010 & up) is significantly improved over the 2nd generation 9-volt system (2007-2009), which was a modest improvement tonewise over the 1st generation 3-volt system.  For anyone who has the 2nd generation system, the upgrade to the current  ES is really simple and surprisingly inexpensive.  The parts you need are the new discrete preamp, which is revoiced as well, and the new sensor harness -- that's it.  Other than removing the old and replacing with the new parts, the only other step is to relocate your existing "dummy" coil (humbucker)... or you could order a new one for ease of installation.  Don't forget relocating the coil.  It is SUPER important in order to get the fully improved sound.  This is an easy DIY project if you can get the info on exactly where to place the new body sensor and where to relocate the coil... or have a Taylor repair outlet do it.  It takes less than half an hour to accomplish.  I did this conversion on a 2009 714ce and was pleased.  There is only one switch on the new preamp for turning on/off the single body sensor.  I have found the body sensor picks up percussive tapping pretty well without being overly sensitive.

If you have a 1st generation ES, the upgrade to the latest system is a bit more involved because of the woodworking required to accomodate the 9-volt batter compartment assembly in the end block.  It will need to go back to Taylor and is a fairly expensive proposition, particulary if you have to consider shipping each way.

The system is not updated "every year" as one member wrote.  It's been updated twice over the decade of it's existence.  However, if the you don't like a warm mag sound, you will not be happy with it -- especially if you are used to UST's.  I think on the bottom three strings the new ES gives an incredibly natural sound while the treble strings do pick up that subtle mag character.  Listen before you decide.  I have two Taylors with the 3rd generation ES and nothing could be simpler to get a good sound when you have to plug-n-play at an open mic night with no sound check.  I get compliments on my guitar sound all the time.  No feedback worries either.

However, I must admit that I installed an Aura Ellipse in my 814c, along with downloading the images specifically for that guitar from Fishman, and I am pretty happy with that too!  I do have a Walnut/Cedar 714c L1 that I am considering installing a pickup in as well.  There are no images for that guitar from Fishman.  I am considering perhaps a K&K system since so many swear by them.  I did have a 712 with a K&K years ago and it was indeed feedback prone... but not as bad as an I-Beam I had once!

[Edward]

I wholeheartedly agree with Bob as the current ES (from 2010) is a considerable tonal improvement.  I've had all three generations, and where I had to EQ fairly  aggressively to get the tone to where I wanted it with the past systems (which were still good IMHO), the current iteration is about as plug-n-play as you can get and have it sound great ...not "pretty good" but genuinely nice, IMHO.  Simply sounds more like an "acoustic" guitar.

As for upgrading from the gen-1 (AA-battery) version, a good Taylor-authorized shop can handle the modicum of woodwork needed on the endblock.  I've had one converted and it was only a bit more dough than simply converting from gen-2 (9volt) to a gen-3 (I did that one, too ...can you tell I like these ).  So for anyone considering it, call up Taylor for a few of their authorized shops near your locale and talk to the tech directly.  The parts cost are on-par to any good aftermarket pup system you'd buy, and the results are well worth the entire expense, IMHO.

And speaking of "expense," I have a K&K on my RT-2 ...sounds great when properly EQ'd through my Venue and the PA; sounds like absolute junk w/o a proper preamp that can tone shape, IMHO.  So that's a considerable added expense right there (of course, one can argue that a good unit can be used with all guitars...)  On an often-played live-use guitar I'd personally go new ES.  The only advantage I can see to a K&K is that for seldom-used live guitars not having to deal with battery swaps really is a plus.

Edward